1965 SG Standard

[Jay Rosenstein]

Hi all,
I recently obtained a 65 SG Standard from a friend. The guitar was purchased new in 65-66 by his father. However, at some point, one of his drug-addicted siblings stole the guitar and filed off the serial number in an effort to sell it. So, it has no serial number.
My question to all of you is this: is there any other way to identify an individual guitar other than the serial number? I would like to establish the guitar's provenance.
Thanks!

 

[Colnago]

Pictures sure help. Pictures inside the back cavity and under the pickups in particular. The more the better, close ups, as clear as possible.
Too bad about the number being gone, lost a lot of value because of that.

 

[Col Mustard]

Welcome to ETSG, and I hope you are able to
find a decent guitar that doesn't carry all this baggage.

With the serial number filed off, the instrument is
simply a stolen guitar. Zero provenance... no value
except on the stolen guitar market. AND perhaps
considerable personal liability.

It's nothing anyone would want to own.
Let's modify that by saying it's nothing anyone with integrity
would want to own.

There are people who will offer money for such an instrument
but only a pittance compared to its value as a player. If the instrument can be restored to playable condition, it can make music.

Think about it this way: Sixties Gibson guitars are so worshipped
that there are sweat shops in many third world countries cranking
out fake ones. There are more fake ones on the market than were
ever made in Kalamazoo. A stolen Gibson can't be resold.

The value of the guitar you describe is measured by the music it
can make. You can't sell it to anyone but an idiot or a criminal.
But it can likely make great music. If you're a player, play it.
If you're not a player, gift it to someone who is. Don't be in the
position of owning a Gibson with its serial number removed.

As I see it (and I'm not a lawyer or an appraiser) your only option
is to take it (AND the original bill of sale) to Gibson's headquarters (after making an appointment with the proper person there)
and asking them if they can restore the serial number.
I have no idea if Gibson ever does that.

If you don't have the original bill of sale, I think you are in
possession of a stolen Gibson guitar. That's a terrible position
to be in, IMHO. I wouldn't touch it.

There are so many excellent SGs on the market that are not
fake, and are not stolen, anyone can buy a decent guitar and
be able to sleep at night. The stolen one will likely end up being
broken up and sold for parts. The parts alone might be worth
more than you think.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Yes, it can still be authenticated. As it turns out, the serial numbers were basically meaningless in the 1960s, so dating is done by other features.

 

[rabbit]

You can also check the control pots for date codes, if the original wiring/hardware is still there.

I'm really waiting for all of the women to start chiming in on how the solo love-making tools of the 50's and 60's outperform the modern versions.

"Nothing like a '59!"

 

[Roger Phillips]

The legalities aside, if the electrics haven't been tampered with the potentiometers should give you a rough idea of its age.
You need to gently prize off the pot-knob- use stiff plastic strips either side of each knob then unscrew the nuts, gently push out the harness (getting carried away; this operation is for Centerlab pots whose codes are on the sides, #s start with 134). You don't need to do this if the pots are CTS (#s start with 137). Simply remove the pot cavity cover.
edit. (sorry, away from my concession for lunch).
As 'rabbit' suggests, check the pots. CTS codes are on the pot-tops and as reference books state, after around 1960 some pot-codes went from six to seven figure #s starting with manufacturers' three figure codes then next two are the year of the pots, last two = week of manufacture ie: 1376252= last week of 1962. Quite often some of the digits are hidden by solder.
I have in my collection a 1962 d.c. slab-body SG Special, s..n. 54541 which has a 1959 loom; pots are Centerlabs: 134929.
Roger

 

[Jay Rosenstein]

Hi all,
The issue is not verifying the date of the guitar. It is absolutely a 65 (width of neck, pick guard, and pots are all 100% 1965). But I'm looking for something that could be used to identify this individual guitar instead of the serial number on the headstock.

 

[rabbit]

I would say without a serial # there is no way to let you know when the guitar was actually produced/determined to be an individual. To my knowledge there are no other marks to set it apart from the hundreds made before or after it in that model/year.

From your description and verification of components I don't doubt you have a '65, but I don't really understand the end goal. As has been said, without a valid serial # it just looks like a really good '65 Gibson SG you can enjoy playing. So be a pal and share some photos, we love SG photos!

 

[Carrion]

Hi all,
I recently obtained a 65 SG Standard from a friend. The guitar was purchased new in 65-66 by his father. However, at some point, one of his drug-addicted siblings stole the guitar and filed off the serial number in an effort to sell it. So, it has no serial number.
My question to all of you is this: is there any other way to identify an individual guitar other than the serial number? I would like to establish the guitar's provenance.
Thanks!

have you checked the pot date?

I also have a 1965 SG Jr. with no serial. and was able to date it with the pots. providing they are orginal

 

[njpaulc]

Since you know who purchased it, roughly when it was purchased, you could try Gibson to see if the original owner sent in warranty information. If you know where it was purchased, and if they're sttill in business you could see if they can give you a copy of the receipt. Did your friend look for a receipt in his father's papers? I know I'm talking long shots, but they're all possibilities.

 

[smitty_p]

Is your goal to eventually sell the guitar, or do you just want some provenance for your own satisfaction?

Honestly, with the original serial number removed, I doubt many people would risk spending the money on the guitar even if all the other validation methods checked out. Some folks may be willing to spend some money, but they'd probably insist on spending just a small fraction of what the instrument would otherwise be worth.

As you've intimated, the issue is not establishing this as a '65, the issue is establishing the individual identity of this particular '65.

 

[Jay Rosenstein]

thanks for the reply. My goal is to find a way to prove that the guitar was not stolen.

Is your goal to eventually sell the guitar, or do you just want some provenance for your own satisfaction?

Honestly, with the original serial number removed, I doubt many people would risk spending the money on the guitar even if all the other validation methods checked out. Some folks may be willing to spend some money, but they'd probably insist on spending just a small fraction of what the instrument would otherwise be worth.

As you've intimated, the issue is not establishing this as a '65, the issue is establishing the individual identity of this particular '65.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Ultimately, there are many guitars that are built without serial numbers (a lot of '70s Japanese guitars) so there's no way to know concretely that any guitar isn't stolen. Heck, even if it has a serial number it could still be stolen. I don't think that would be a major concern in selling it, I think the bigger issue would be the damage done to the finish by sanding it. It would certainly reduce the value, though I don't think it would be massive.