Fibsons

[smitty_p]

...but is there such a thing as a good quality counterfeit ?

Sure there is. And, the counterfeiters are getting better at making them less detectable. Those who know what to look for can still spot the imposters, but some of the tell-tale signs have been corrected.

Who knows? They may even peruse guitar forums and YouTube to learn what we look for in identifying a fake!

 

[PermissionToLand]

A few weeks ago I viewed a video on YouTube where some guy is unwrapping a Les Paul knock off he just received from either China or Korea. The guy seems to be some kind of skilled guitarist and as the video rolls on he is delighted with the quality of his inexpensively counterfeit guitar. I've never personally seen or handled one, but is there such a thing as a good quality counterfeit ? No one can deny the good workmanship of the Epiphone Chinese instruments. Could there be other competent manufacturers in the Orient? Just curious. A loyal Gibson customer.

Sure, why not? Chinese manufacturers have been building guitars since around 2000 or so, they have surely learned a lot since then. It doesn't matter where a guitar was made, what matters is HOW it was made. Remember, most Japanese manufacturers started out making copies. That said, he could have gotten lucky as I suspect they still don't have the standards of Epiphone's Qingdao plant, generally speaking. And of course, the ethics are debatable. If you just want it for yourself, and will not ever misrepresent it as a real Gibson, I don't see a problem with it, no different from building your own copy like legendary builder Kris Derrig who made Slash's AFD Les Paul (which is ironically now counterfeited by Chinese builders). That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Relic61]

And of course, the ethics are debatable.

No debate with me. If we are talking ethics it is both ethically wrong & illegal. When something such as this is blatantly illegal it has to be thought of & considered unethical.

Now look at the situation we are in because these types of unethical actions were tolerated & or not pursued, litigated, punished or effectively stopped!

I don't care to turn this into a political rant as much as I want to emphasize the eventual consequences of us not taking these things seriously or duly weighing our personal ethical responsibility not to be a part of this chain that supports it in any way.

 

[PermissionToLand]

No debate with me. If we are talking ethics it is both ethically wrong & illegal. When something such as this is blatantly illegal it has to be thought of & considered unethical.

Now look at the situation we are in because these types of unethical actions were tolerated & or not pursued, litigated, punished or effectively stopped!

I don't care to turn this into a political rant as much as I want to emphasize the eventual consequences of us not taking these things seriously or duly weighing our personal ethical responsibility not to be a part of this chain that supports it in any way.

There are also levels of ethic. Going 1 mph over the limit is technically unethical but on the scale of things, it's not so bad. As I said, if you're not intending to deceive anyone with it, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

How do you feel about a respected luthier like Kris Derrig making a replica with the Gibson name on it?

 

[Relic61]

How do you feel about a respected luthier like Kris Derrig making a replica with the Gibson name on it?

To me the differences are obvious when comparing Chinese corporate mass production of Gibson knockoffs vs a Luthier hand crafting an instrument. What China does with these types of things as well as intellectual property & US developed technology / innovation is extremely hurtful on many levels which frankly pales in comparison to a skilled luthier hand manufacturing tribute guitars.

While both can be 'wrong', what China does causes real damage & hurt to American companies, inventors & workers &.. it should not be made light of or condoned by any American or law honoring world citizen. Not seeing or understanding the serious harm on a grand scale being done by China is a very real part of the problem because it supports & perpetuates the problem! And I just can't see any American finding out & understanding the truth about the extent, damage & potential dangers when it comes to loss of our technology ans still condoning it on any level.

So to be blunt, my personal issues with Chines knockoffs extends far beyond the manufacturing of Chibsons. Chibsons are just a small part of the wrong being done to America & our best interests. The behavior needs to be condemned every time it's brought up. To make light or be a part of supporting what China is doing with the manufacture of Gibson knockoffs is simply condoning it & supporting all the wrongful damage, loss of revenue, loss of jobs, loss of intellectual property & commandeering of technology that Chinese companies get away with & profit over at our collective expense & potential peril down the road.

Yah, it's that big a deal and I think we are going to actually see something negotiated with the US & China when the current tariff tit for tat gets worked out. Currently, China's economy is taking a beating while the US is prospering. This is a sure sign that China currently can not compete with America in this arena & it would be in both countries best interests to comply with agreed upon laws governing honoring US copyright.

A nation honoring law brings honor to a nation.

 

[PermissionToLand]

To me the differences are obvious when comparing Chinese corporate mass production of Gibson knockoffs vs a Luthier hand crafting an instrument. What China does with these types of things as well as intellectual property & US developed technology / innovation is extremely hurtful on many levels which frankly pales in comparison to a skilled luthier hand manufacturing tribute guitars.

While both can be 'wrong', what China does causes real damage & hurt to American companies, inventors & workers &.. it should not be made light of or condoned by any American or law honoring world citizen. Not seeing or understanding the serious harm on a grand scale being done by China is a very real part of the problem because it supports & perpetuates the problem! And I just can't see any American finding out & understanding the truth about the extent, damage & potential dangers when it comes to loss of our technology ans still condoning it on any level.

So to be blunt, my personal issues with Chines knockoffs extends far beyond the manufacturing of Chibsons. Chibsons are just a small part of the wrong being done to America & our best interests. The behavior needs to be condemned every time it's brought up. To make light or be a part of supporting what China is doing with the manufacture of Gibson knockoffs is simply condoning it & supporting all the wrongful damage, loss of revenue, loss of jobs, loss of intellectual property & commandeering of technology that Chinese companies get away with & profit over at our collective expense & potential peril down the road.

Yah, it's that big a deal and I think we are going to actually see something negotiated with the US & China when the current tariff tit for tat gets worked out. Currently, China's economy is taking a beating while the US is prospering. This is a sure sign that China currently can not compete with America in this arena & it would be in both countries best interests to comply with agreed upon laws governing honoring US copyright.

A nation honoring law brings honor to a nation.

Differences in quality, sure. But ethically? And I'm not talking about similar "tribute" guitars, I'm talking about this:

That is also stealing intellectual property and technology (which... is how the world works. Technological advancements cannot be built upon if they are hoarded. How do you think the luthiery profession continued for centuries? By passing on knowledge).

How are Chinese fakes doing any more damage than American fakes? American luthiers can actually challenge Gibson in quality, unlike the Chinese. Chibsons are nothing more than a novelty. I really don't think you have any way of quantifying any damage done to Gibson by the Chinese, so you can't really act like everyone should just agree with you because you say it's so.

Also, as I've said time and again here, Gibson having any rights to the LP body shape is absolute horseshit. It's THE generic folk bodyshape. Also, the open book headstock design predates Gibson's use by at least a century. However, I don't condone putting the Gibson name on anything that is not a Gibson, as that's what intellectual property was intended to cover. And that is exactly how Japan conducts themselves, and I don't see any way you could call them "a nation without honor"...

As far as other industries go, again, I draw a line between counterfeiting and simply copying technology. How do you think the Japanese rebuilt their automotive industry so quickly after the war? You realize there are even businesses dedicated to reverse-engineering competitor's products:

https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-company-that-tears-cars-apart-to-find-o-1787205420

Frankly, your whole rant is coming off as dog-whistle xenophobia. "To even question my narrative that China is evil and attacking/destroying America makes you complicit!" Get lost with that ****. American companies come into every emerging market and immediately dominate it because the domestic industries are too underdeveloped to compete. They do not have a "right to profit" from a country as they have literally argued in court. I do not blame China for protecting their domestic industries that would otherwise be obliterated by American powerhouses in what you'd un-ironically call "free/fair trade".

Ask the American farmers or steel industry how that "prosperity" is treating them. Yeah, this tariff "tit for tat" will totally "just work out"...

 

[SG standard]

Chibsons are nothing more than a novelty. I really don't think you have any way of quantifying any damage done to Gibson by the Chinese, so you can't really act like everyone should just agree with you because you say it's so.

That's a good point - and it echoes the claims made about illegal digital downloads that have typically suggested every download equals a loss of sales, which they clearly didn't. It's unlikely any significant numbers of people would buy a £250 Chibson instead of a £2,500 Gibson, perhaps no one would. Especially when you consider that you can actually buy a much cheaper Gibson, if you're willing to forgo the gloss finish, bound body, etc., of the high end Les Paul. 'Serious buyers' are more likely to choose the genuine Gibson at a lower price point, than the flashy but sub-standard fake. Of course, this could change as the fakers start to improve, but they've really got to surpass Gibson's quality to offer more than the genuine article.

A similar thing occurs with counterfeit designer clothes, bags, shoes, etc., which is a much bigger global market. The damage is really in the impact on the luxury brand, when large numbers of 'less well off' people are seen with the brand, and the image of the brand is diluted - something that I doubt applies to Gibson.

I suspect there is a bigger threat from the high-end handmade Gibson inspired Guitar - even those that don't have a fake Gibson logo. These may be produced in relatively small numbers, but by a lot of people around the world, and they're bought by people who clearly like the Gibson design/style, but are choosing not to buy the brand (for whatever reasons). Of course, these aren't fakes or counterfeits as such.

 

[Relic61]

To save any more of this long winded back 'n forth let me simplify & say that if it is illegal it is automatically wrong in the eyes of the law. When we act outside the boundaries of legality we enter the realm of being unethical simply by that fact alone.

Second, name calling or labeling things

dog-whistle xenophobia

is a BS way of skewing a legitimate & honest conversation & essentially slandering me & my ideas as wrong/bad/& or illegitimate.
And you are bordering that political rant I wanted to avoid that is all too apparent in your defense of China & contempt for American companies. Why hell, you went & jumped right into that pit of $#it feet first!

I do not blame China for protecting their domestic industries that would otherwise be obliterated by American powerhouses in what you'd un-ironically call "free/fair trade".

American companies come into every emerging market and immediately dominate it because the domestic industries are too underdeveloped to compete. They do not have a "right to profit" from a country as they have literally argued in court.

You went & took it there! Obviously we have 2 different point of views & 2 different allegiances so you can continue to have what is sure to further devolve into slander-fest with more finger pointing name calling & identity politics without me being involved because,.. I have learned trying to converse with people that are compelled to attach ugly names & label your views & engage in left leaning slander tactics are a waste of time trying to actually converse with as there is seemingly no good that comes from this waste of energy. Or simply put, there are hundreds of better things to do with our time than for people like me & you to hammer at each other repeatedly on such things. You can love & defend China & what it does all you like, I'm not going to call you names over it.

Before I excuse myself I will reiterate, this was a discussion on China knockoffs & subsequently a question directed at me about a Luthier copying a Gibson. Now it is an anti-American anti-American business rant. Fvk that $#it. It doesn't belong in a guitar forum, PERIOD! & our rules & guidelines state it for a very good reason!

My comments on China were meant as a factual representation of the grand scale to which they profit off of & steal American ideas, technology & intellectual property. Regardless of who else does it (or whatever else like it) the bottom line free of all "dog-whistle xenophobia" is that China does this & does it on a very large scale AND.. it hurts real Americans & costs Americans greatly.
To try to label that factual statement as dog-whistle xenophobia would be avoiding & trying to de-legitimize truth & reality. Why? Because you hate America? American businesses? Americans?

What's the point of saying 'well so & so does this or so & so did that'? when the point is that China does it, has been doing it for years & has been getting away with it at the expense of American interests AND IT IS WRONG!

 

[Norlin SG]

Buying a chibson and trying to pass it off is no different that placing a sock in your undies when going out to pick up chicks. When the time comes, the truth will come out.

Maybe the reason you are having a hard time impressing chicks is be cause you wear womans under garments. (undies)

 

[Stark Naked]

I hope this relates to this discussion, but Epiphone which is located in China, makes a really nice high quality version of an SG. Could it possibly happen that disgruntled employees from Epiphone open their own Chinese sweat shop guitar factory and start turning out Epiphone quality SG's with Gibson on the headstock. I only suggest this because I watched a You Tube video in which an Australian guitarist ordered a Chinese SG that had the specifications and workmanship right on the money. I have to admit it looked really nice and I have three Gibson SG's and an Epiphone that I really love. As much as I love them, Gibson isn't the only company making nice guitars.

 

[SG standard]

I hope this relates to this discussion, but Epiphone which is located in China, makes a really nice high quality version of an SG. Could it possibly happen that disgruntled employees from Epiphone open their own Chinese sweat shop guitar factory and start turning out Epiphone quality SG's with Gibson on the headstock.

Well, it's not as if a Gibson SG contains some top-secret high tech components or sate-of-the-art construction techniques that only a Gibson/Epiphone employee would know about. If anything, other factories around the world have shown themselves capable of turning out decent guitars (including copies of Gibsons) for decades, and they've done so with better QC too, so I don't see why Chinese fakes would need to have anything to do with Epiphone employees. Anyone with the right skills and tools could do it. Most fakers probably haven't been trying to do anything more than get cosmetically close enough.

Also, why would disgruntled Epiphone employees open up a sweat shop guitar factory, rather than a workers co-operative? Epiphone doesn't run a sweat shop, so why would they give themselves worse working conditions?

 

[Stark Naked]

It takes a very special mentality to miss the point so dramatically. Thank you for responding to my rant, but obviously you haven't watched the Epiphone factory video. The last time I looked China was still Communist. As such i don't think they have labor unions. Besides, those remarks were only to present a possible scenario to illustrate a point. Sorry it eluded you.

 

[donepearce]

It takes a very special mentality to miss the point so dramatically. Thank you for responding to my rant, but obviously you haven't watched the Epiphone factory video. The last time I looked China was still Communist. As such i don't think they have labor unions. Besides, those remarks were only to present a possible scenario to illustrate a point. Sorry it eluded you.

China may not have labour unions, but frankly they don't need them. When my company opened its Shanghai factory it was staffed by workers who came in from the countryside on bikes. Since then the government has mandated statutory pay rises annually, and every one of those people now comes in by car and wears the latest fashionable clothes. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Communist system and I would love for all these people to be free to elect a government of their own choice. But don't get the idea that these are highly oppressed people working in sweat shops. They aren't. And of course the actual reason for manufacturing there? The stuff we make is ultra high tech and much of it flies in space. We use Shanghai because of consistent superlative quality.

 

[Stark Naked]

My original comment was only to say that not all guitars that come out of China are poor quality counterfeit knock offs. It really had nothing to do with sweat shops, Communist, bicycles or labor unions. This just goes to show how distorted some individuals perception can be. Sorry I commented. I'll certainly refrain from doing it again.

 

[donepearce]

My original comment was only to say that not all guitars that come out of China are poor quality counterfeit knock offs. It really had nothing to do with sweat shops, Communist, bicycles or labor unions. This just goes to show how distorted some individuals perception can be. Sorry I commented. I'll certainly refrain from doing it again.

No need to get hissy. I was adding to the story, not trying to deny anything. Make your comments, but don't assume that anyone who says something else is telling you you're wrong.

 

[Stark Naked]

To me the differences are obvious when comparing Chinese corporate mass production of Gibson knockoffs vs a Luthier hand crafting an instrument. What China does with these types of things as well as intellectual property & US developed technology / innovation is extremely hurtful on many levels which frankly pales in comparison to a skilled luthier hand manufacturing tribute guitars. At last a voice of reason.

While both can be 'wrong', what China does causes real damage & hurt to American companies, inventors & workers &.. it should not be made light of or condoned by any American or law honoring world citizen. Not seeing or understanding the serious harm on a grand scale being done by China is a very real part of the problem because it supports & perpetuates the problem! And I just can't see any American finding out & understanding the truth about the extent, damage & potential dangers when it comes to loss of our technology ans still condoning it on any level.

So to be blunt, my personal issues with Chines knockoffs extends far beyond the manufacturing of Chibsons. Chibsons are just a small part of the wrong being done to America & our best interests. The behavior needs to be condemned every time it's brought up. To make light or be a part of supporting what China is doing with the manufacture of Gibson knockoffs is simply condoning it & supporting all the wrongful damage, loss of revenue, loss of jobs, loss of intellectual property & commandeering of technology that Chinese companies get away with & profit over at our collective expense & potential peril down the road.

Yah, it's that big a deal and I think we are going to actually see something negotiated with the US & China when the current tariff tit for tat gets worked out. Currently, China's economy is taking a beating while the US is prospering. This is a sure sign that China currently can not compete with America in this arena & it would be in both countries best interests to comply with agreed upon laws governing honoring US copyright.

A nation honoring law brings honor to a nation.

 

[Stark Naked]

I can't argue with Relic61. He has certainly taken the moral and ethical high ground. It makes me feel ashamed that I even considered investing in a Chinese knockoff.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

There are also levels of ethic. Going 1 mph over the limit is technically unethical but on the scale of things, it's not so bad. As I said, if you're not intending to deceive anyone with it, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Actually, that's technically illegal. It may be entirely ethical, though, depending on the circumstances (is your wife giving birth? Are you driving to your volunteer fire department to jump on a truck?)

When we act outside the boundaries of legality we enter the realm of being unethical simply by that fact alone.

The unexamined premise here is that all laws are ethical. This is not the case. I don't think Martin Luther King was unethical in his civil disobedience, even though it saw him sent to jail -- because resisting Jim Crow laws was an entirely ethcial act.

Conflating the law and ethics is an easy mistake, but it's a mistake nonetheless.

 

[PermissionToLand]

To save any more of this long winded back 'n forth let me simplify & say that if it is illegal it is automatically wrong in the eyes of the law. When we act outside the boundaries of legality we enter the realm of being unethical simply by that fact alone.

Second, name calling or labeling things

is a BS way of skewing a legitimate & honest conversation & essentially slandering me & my ideas as wrong/bad/& or illegitimate.
And you are bordering that political rant I wanted to avoid that is all too apparent in your defense of China & contempt for American companies. Why hell, you went & jumped right into that pit of $#it feet first!





You went & took it there! Obviously we have 2 different point of views & 2 different allegiances so you can continue to have what is sure to further devolve into slander-fest with more finger pointing name calling & identity politics without me being involved because,.. I have learned trying to converse with people that are compelled to attach ugly names & label your views & engage in left leaning slander tactics are a waste of time trying to actually converse with as there is seemingly no good that comes from this waste of energy. Or simply put, there are hundreds of better things to do with our time than for people like me & you to hammer at each other repeatedly on such things. You can love & defend China & what it does all you like, I'm not going to call you names over it.

As Thumpalumpacus said, something being a law does not make it ethical.

Yes, xenophobia. Your comments about "countries with honor" are textbook nationalist rhetoric. Why should another country honor laws that are designed to make their products less competitive and entrench oligopolies in another country?

If you wanted to avoid political discussion, you wouldn't have ranted so specifically about China and brought nonsense right wing rhetoric about "honor" into this. You're not fooling anyone with your desperate attempt to twist this around on me.

I have no allegiances except to logic and humanity. But I'm glad you could admit your allegiance.

Calling you out for xenophobic rhetoric is not name-calling. Try again.

Now it is an anti-American anti-American business rant.

It says a lot that you wold call standing up for developing countries so that they aren't subject to the tyranny of American conglomerates "anti-American". I'm pretty sure using sweatshop labor is against US law, which is why these corporations are outsourcing to begin with. THAT is anti-American. You want them to exploit China's workforce for labor while simultaneously preventing their domestic industries from developing.

My comments on China were meant as a factual representation of the grand scale to which they profit off of & steal American ideas, technology & intellectual property.

And you've completely ignored how American businesses have stolen from every other country on Earth. How convenient.

it hurts real Americans & costs Americans greatly.

To this, I will copy and paste my previous comment that you dodged like the coward you are:

How are Chinese fakes doing any more damage than American fakes? American luthiers can actually challenge Gibson in quality, unlike the Chinese. Chibsons are nothing more than a novelty. I really don't think you have any way of quantifying any damage done to Gibson by the Chinese, so you can't really act like everyone should just agree with you because you say it's so.

You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want, it is becoming increasingly apparent to all who are reading that you have no argument, you are simply indoctrinated by right wing propaganda and cannot handle any information from outside your bubble. You have not made a single substantive counter argument to a word I have said. You have just responded with arrogance and impotent rage.

Because you hate America?

Yes, I hate America, you got me! Ladies and gentlemen, I give you exhibit A: the brainwashed conservative who cannot handle opinions that counter his own, so he resorts to laughably histrionic strawmen.

There is simply no parodying you helpless fools. You are literally quoting a cartoon exaggeration of conservatives:

What's the point of saying 'well so & so does this or so & so did that'? when the point is that China does it, has been doing it for years & has been getting away with it at the expense of American interests AND IT IS WRONG!

What is the point of saying "Well, China does this & that"? When the point is that America does it, has been doing it for years and has been getting away with it at the expense of Chinese and other countries' interests AND IT IS WRONG!!!!

You are coming at this from an assumption of American moral superiority. Get over yourself. We have stolen from every culture on Earth and have the gall to turn around and tell other countries they cannot use technology that was built upon technology THEY developed and that WE STOLE from them.

The level of narcissism that takes is distressing.

 

[DrBGood]