Is there a downside to a straight neck with no relief?

[living room rocker]

I see differing opinions from many forums. The neck of my SG looks dead straight by eye; I have no precision straightedge. When I capo the first, depress the 21st, and check at the 7th - 9th, there's literally no relief between string and fret yet I get no buzz anywhere on the neck. I had a fret leveling by a pro luthier a couple years ago and haven't touched the bridge height since; all my action adjustments come from the truss rod. I like the low action and can feel the slightest change to the action on my fingertips when bending. I tweaked the truss rod this morning 1/4 turn because the action seemed a hair high, rod feels pretty tight. Any downside to this extremely low action or just personal preference?

 

[living room rocker]

P.S. I always loosen the strings before doing any tightening of the truss rod.

 

[DrBGood]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Looks like you luthier did a good fret job.

 

[living room rocker]

Thanks Doc.

 

[Norton]

Absolutely No problem. I build guitars with aluminum necks ( no truss rods) zero flex in the neck.

I can set these guitars up with extremely low action 1mm or less without any fret buzz or string choke.

 

[Decadent Dan]

I have a friend who prefers to set them up straight and low. He plays 8’s without a pick. Anything heavier might need room to vibrate.

 

[Colnago]

That’s how Rickenbacker sets up their guitars and specifies that this is the correct way.
I have 90% of my guitars set up with no or very little relief as I do my own fret levelling and setups. They all play amazing with no buzz.
Even others that have played my guitars are amazed and get me to level their frets and setup their guitars. Head inflated here.
If the frets are perfectly level, then there isn’t much need for relief, in my opinion, not sure if that counts for anything.
I always used the truss rod to correct buzzing in my guitars before I learned how to level and crown my frets. Now that they’re all level relief makes no difference as by strings don’t buzz.
The other 10% of my guitars have not had any fret levelling done to them by me or are in such bad condition that I can’t get the necks adjusted properly.

 

[jtcnj]

No downside if it works for you.
I can't. I am a clumsy pick hand, though I work on picking skill drills daily and am improving.
As you can see in my Sig, I am a long standing member of the Sucky Guitar Players Organization

 

[Go Nigel Go]

I like a nice low action on my Gibsons, and at first blush a "dead straight" neck seems to be the best thing. That said, I have seen guitars that benefited from a small amount of neck relief. If there are string geometry issues that are too costly to fix by another method in the moment, a touch of relief can sometimes give you the lowest possible action for no real cost. My goal is usually to use as little relief as possible though since it is very easy to get playability problems with even a little bit of bow. In my experience if you can see it easily without a straight edge it is probably gonna be way too much to be easy to play.

 

[Les’s Nemisis]

First, don't use the truss rod to set your action. Use the bridge. However, if the relief is too large, the action will generally be too high. So relief needs to be correct. Then adjust the bridge/action.

As for "straight"... it can work. But with too little relief and a low bridge, pressing the string at fret 1 is going to leave too little clearance at fret 2 and you get buzz. Etc up the neck. By adding relief, the nut end effectively moves higher while body end is fixed and you add more clearance on that "next fret" beyond where you press. Less chance of buzz. But more relief will effectively raise the action, so it's a balance.

Most guitars need a little relief to play right. You might even find that yours plays better with a little more relief and the bridge adjusted. But if it seems to work for you now then stick with what you have. There's no "right", there's just what you like the feel of.

 

[smitty_p]

First, don't use the truss rod to set your action. Use the bridge. However, if the relief is too large, the action will generally be too high. So relief needs to be correct. Then adjust the bridge/action.

^^^^This.

 

[living room rocker]

First, don't use the truss rod to set your action. Use the bridge. However, if the relief is too large, the action will generally be too high. So relief needs to be correct. Then adjust the bridge/action.

^^^^This.

That said, I have seen guitars that benefited from a small amount of neck relief. If there are string geometry issues that are too costly to fix by another method in the moment, a touch of relief can sometimes give you the lowest possible action for no real cost.

Took you guys' advice. Lowered the bridge (quite a bit actually.....a full turn on each knurled adjuster) instead of cranking down further on the truss rod. It allowed me to add just a fraction of relief with no buzz anywhere. Even though the neck looked straight and had zero relief, the action still felt a bit high mid-neck when bending strings and was afraid to go any further on the truss rod. Didn't wanna break it or create a back-bow. Followed the setup method touted by DrBGood and our late friend Biddlin. Gonna let it set a few hours and recheck. Can already tell the action is closer to what I like. Appreciate everyone's input.

 

[Go Nigel Go]

Took you guys' advice. Lowered the bridge (quite a bit actually.....a full turn on each knurled adjuster) instead of cranking down further on the truss rod. It allowed me to add just a fraction of relief with no buzz anywhere. Even though the neck looked straight and had zero relief, the action still felt a bit high mid-neck when bending strings and was afraid to go any further on the truss rod. Didn't wanna break it or create a back-bow. Followed the setup method touted by DrBGood and our late friend Biddlin. Gonna let it set a few hours and recheck. Can already tell the action is closer to what I like. Appreciate everyone's input.

Just to clarify a bit because I am not sure if we are using terms in the same way...

Neck relief should be a slight forward bow, not back. If the neck is "dead straight" at rest with no string tension, bringing it up to standard tune will pull forward bow into the neck. This would be neck relief, maybe a little or a lot depending on the stiffness of the neck. The truss rod can be used to bring that back as needed if the neck relief is too much. Over doing the truss rod adjustment can actually pull "back bow" into the neck, which is always bad since you would have to raise the bridge (and therefore the action) to eliminate fret buzz. Also it should be noted that fret dressing can change the plane such that the line over the tops of the frets is not paralell to the finger board.

Ideally you want the fret tops to make a straight line roughly paralell with the finger board. Nut slot depth, neck angle to the body, bridge height and saddle slots all interrelate to establish the string angle relative to the plane of the tops of the frets. When everything is adjusted beautifully, the neck can be very close to "dead straight" and the strings will clear all the frets above the fretted note while vibrating with very little wasted movement. You always need to establish a very narrow string angle to achieve this, but if you can think of all the elements that can affect sting angle simultaneously you are on the right track. Bridge height is an easy and reversable adjustment, as is the truss rod. Bridge height directly adjusts the string angle, the truss rod is more indirect and the bridge should always be the final adjustment to string angle. The nut slots and neck set angle are more fundamental adjustments that get set early and not so easily reversable.

It is a complex dance where you are always giving a bit here, taking a bit there to achieve a comfortable action, but once you "get it right" you need to know when to stop fiddling with it and just play it. It sounds like yours is pretty darn close. Absolute perfection is probably an unattainable goal.

 

[living room rocker]

Just to clarify a bit because I am not sure if we are using terms in the same way...

Neck relief should be a slight forward bow, not back. If the neck is "dead straight" at rest with no string tension, bringing it up to standard tune will pull forward bow into the neck. This would be neck relief, maybe a little or a lot depending on the stiffness of the neck. The truss rod can be used to bring that back as needed if the neck relief is too much. Over doing the truss rod adjustment can actually pull "back bow" into the neck, which is always bad since you would have to raise the bridge (and therefore the action) to eliminate fret buzz. Also it should be noted that fret dressing can change the plane such that the line over the tops of the frets is not paralell to the finger board.

Ideally you want the fret tops to make a straight line roughly paralell with the finger board. Nut slot depth, neck angle to the body, bridge height and saddle slots all interrelate to establish the string angle relative to the plane of the tops of the frets. When everything is adjusted beautifully, the neck can be very close to "dead straight" and the strings will clear all the frets above the fretted note while vibrating with very little wasted movement. You always need to establish a very narrow string angle to achieve this, but if you can think of all the elements that can affect sting angle simultaneously you are on the right track. Bridge height is an easy and reversable adjustment, as is the truss rod. Bridge height directly adjusts the string angle, the truss rod is more indirect and the bridge should always be the final adjustment to string angle. The nut slots and neck set angle are more fundamental adjustments that get set early and not so easily reversable.

It is a complex dance where you are always giving a bit here, taking a bit there to achieve a comfortable action, but once you "get it right" you need to know when to stop fiddling with it and just play it. It sounds like yours is pretty darn close. Absolute perfection is probably an unattainable goal.

For sure on that Nigel, a lot of interrelated dimensions to consider at once. Couldn't understand why the strings were riding high on my fingertips while bending even with what looked to be a straight neck under tension with zero relief. Lowering the bridge and backing off the truss rod a 1/4 turn seemed to help a lot. I agree, think I'm pretty much there. Appreciate your input.

 

[living room rocker]

Just curious what may be some telltale signs that a fret job is pending? The frets on my guitar have no major divots in them. However, after messing with the action the bridge is now decked on the small e-string side but no buzz whatsoever and only a fraction of relief. Can't go any lower on that side. Two years since a fret level and dressing and play roughly 1 1/2 hours a day. Think I've got a light touch but I do bend a lot. Original frets on the Epi G400. When it eventually does become time, you folks go nickel or stainless?

 

[Go Nigel Go]

The number 1 sign of worn frets by a million miles is divots. If you don't have divots the frets are not worn out, and no matter how smooth a player you are there is no way for fret wear to be distributed evenly over the entire fret. It is always going to be concentrated under the strings you fret most on the frets you use most, and let's face it, we all have favorite keys and patterns that will inevitably concentrate wear to certain places on the fret board. Even if you used the entire chromatic scale equally at all times, you would still just get equal divots under the strings over the entire neck before it was time for a re-fret.

How many times have you had to lower your bridge? My concern is that something might be moving, either in the neck itself or neck joint in the body. If you have a bolt on neck, a loose neck joint is pretty easy to diagnose and repair. Set necks are less likely to move, but much more difficult to fix. Some photos might help, but really this would probably take some experienced hands on inspection to diagnose. It is possible there is nothing at all wrong with it, and that is just where your particular instrument set up needs to be and it took you a little while to find it.

I have guitars that took me a few months to sort out, but once it was done some of those instruments haven't needed a bridge adjustment in 20 or 30 years. Some of them have a fair bit of fret wear and divots, but the overall action is still good. The only guitar I have that requires constant fiddling is my circa 1970 Ovation copy of the Gibson ES 335. It's a cool guitar, but it moves around a lot, and has some known structural issues that limit it's utility to home and studio use. When it is set up it is great for a few months, but no way I would put myself in a position where I had to rely on it, nor would I want to subject it to the stresses of the road.

So I guess what I am saying is you probably need to look somewhere other than the frets.

 

[living room rocker]

The number 1 sign of worn frets by a million miles is divots. If you don't have divots the frets are not worn out, and no matter how smooth a player you are there is no way for fret wear to be distributed evenly over the entire fret. It is always going to be concentrated under the strings you fret most on the frets you use most, and let's face it, we all have favorite keys and patterns that will inevitably concentrate wear to certain places on the fret board. Even if you used the entire chromatic scale equally at all times, you would still just get equal divots under the strings over the entire neck before it was time for a re-fret.

How many times have you had to lower your bridge? My concern is that something might be moving, either in the neck itself or neck joint in the body. If you have a bolt on neck, a loose neck joint is pretty easy to diagnose and repair. Set necks are less likely to move, but much more difficult to fix. Some photos might help, but really this would probably take some experienced hands on inspection to diagnose. It is possible there is nothing at all wrong with it, and that is just where your particular instrument set up needs to be and it took you a little while to find it.

I have guitars that took me a few months to sort out, but once it was done some of those instruments haven't needed a bridge adjustment in 20 or 30 years. Some of them have a fair bit of fret wear and divots, but the overall action is still good. The only guitar I have that requires constant fiddling is my circa 1970 Ovation copy of the Gibson ES 335. It's a cool guitar, but it moves around a lot, and has some known structural issues that limit it's utility to home and studio use. When it is set up it is great for a few months, but no way I would put myself in a position where I had to rely on it, nor would I want to subject it to the stresses of the road.

So I guess what I am saying is you probably need to look somewhere other than the frets.

Ultimately, think what happened was I inadvertently changed the bridge height when cleaning and re-stringing three weeks ago. I normally pull the tailpiece and bridge when cleaning. Thinking that my cleaning rag brushed up and turned the bridge post. Then afterwards had to crank down the truss rod to compensate for the added bridge height, maybe even creating a slight back bow. Will have to be more careful next time. After a marathon setup and intonation session yesterday, it's playing beautifully. It was a pain in the a--, but I learned a lot. Thanks again for the input, much obliged.

 

[living room rocker]

A couple things learned was locking tuners and multiple string loosening and re-tuning are tough on strings. Broke five strings in the process, had to make a run to Guitar Center for packs of strings. Bought some F-one conditioner for the first time and applied to the fretboard.......some really good stuff.

 

[jtees4]

Generally speaking, I thought this was my secret....but I guess it's finally out. I have been doing the straight neck thing since around 1976 when a professional guitar tech at a Kansa/Rick Derringer show told me about it (not sure who's tech he was). I have bought and sold tons of guitars since then. The first thing I do when I buy a guitar is tighten the truss rod until the neck is straight. Then I adjust action etc. About 90% of guitars play perfect like this, with super low action, and I leave them that way. The other 10% might need a slight truss rod loosening to play correctly on the lower frets, this is due to low nut slots etc. Strats (Fenders)also depend on how the neck is installed in the pocket, so they can be more finicky etc. Bottom line, do what works, not what you think is correct. Hendrix did nothing "correctly" but we'd probably all agree it worked for him.