SG sounding choked and plinky

[N_I_B]

Hi everyone, first post here and hoping you guys can offer some insight into my problem! I'm a long time SG owner but never really bonded with it. This is mostly due to how it sounds plugged in - to me it feels hard to play and sounds dead/plinky and choked with low sustain. Weirdly it doesn't sound like this acoustically and it rings out really nice unplugged which is kind of why I bought it when I tried it in store (didn't get much of a chance to plug it in there)! I absolutely love the feel of the guitar, the neck is perfect and it doesn't neck dive or anything. Feels great on a strap and the comfort of an SG has kind of ruined most other guitars for me now! It just sounds a bit dead and weak plugged in.

I've tried loads of pickups in it but ended up back with the stock 490r/498t for now. I kind of just accepted that this is the SG sound and worked with it, but it became really apparent when I recently built up a parts strat on the cheap and even this has way more depth and sustain to the tone. The SG just sounds really one dimensional. I'm wondering if it's a setup issue now, I like my action quite low but wondering if that's not going to work for this guitar? Anything else I should look at before going down the pickup rabbit hole again? I'm thinking of trying humbucker size P90s again as the extra dynamics and "openness" of a P90 might help?

I've already replaced the circuit board & pots with CTS 500k, 50s wiring. It's top wrapped with the tailpiece all the way down but I wonder if the low break angle is affecting things?

 

[Col Mustard]

Welcome to ETSG!

I'd start by saying that there is NO real reason why your
Gibson guitar with Gibson pickups can't give you everything...
Deep clear lows, tough and present midrange, jangly and musical
highs with no ice pick.

That's the way a Gibson SG played through a decent amp can sound.

That's assuming the wiring is properly done, and all the solder joints
are properly done, and the strings are new and the setup gives proper
action as well as proper distance from the strings to the pickups....

And that's also assuming you're playing through an amp that's capable
of rendering the highs mids and lows I mentioned, and using a good quality cable, and that you're using the tone controls on the guitar and
those on the amp to enhance the frequencies you need for your music.

The first thing I thought of after reading your post
is that maybe you've done some damage to the wiring
and connections by messing with it too much. I suggest taking the instrument to the best luthier you can find or afford, and ask for a
complete inspection and setup. You'll spend some money doing that
but your Gibson is worth it.

If it feels dead and weak plugged in, maybe you've got
your pickups reversed, or a bad solder joint. There could be a short
in the pickup windings due to being yanked out of someone's guitar and jostled around.

If your pickups are too close to the strings, that can choke the
sound.
If you're trying to use the same EQ settings on your amp as you use
for a Fender guitar or a shredder, that might not work either. You have to EQ your guitar differently, because it IS different. The simplest way to do that is with an EQ pedal in your f/x loop.

If you've changed pickups and still can't get highs mids and lows
then it's NOT the pickups. You can get good sound out of almost any pickup... SD, Frailin, Bare Knuckles, Rio Grande, Stew Mac's "Golden Age... or your stock Gibbies. Given good wiring, it's all a matter of EQ.

Here's the key phrase in your post for me...
"I absolutely love the feel of the guitar, the neck is perfect and it doesn't neck dive or anything. Feels great on a strap and the comfort of an SG has kind of ruined most other guitars for me now!"

That sentence indicates you've got an excellent guitar for
your style. That is why many of us are here on this SG forum.
We all feel like this, or a lot of us do. And most of us have no trouble getting good sound out of our SGs.

So don't accept some weak dead sounding tone and say, "Well, I guess that's the SG sound." Listen to what other players can do
with their SGs. SGs can growl and snort and rip and shriek...
Something's blocking your tone, and it shouldn't be hard for a
pro luthier to find it and unblock it.

Good luck, don't forget to return and report once you sort
this problem out.

 

[duane v]

If it sounds fine acoustically, I would say the issue could be somewhere in the electronics.... maybe a bad capacitor / volume pot or the soldering isn't very good.

 

[jtcnj]

Electronics issue or pickup height - no way it should sound like you describe.

Pull the leads off one of the pickups and wire it directly to the output jack.

 

[Decadent Dan]

Check the neck relief for a back-bow.

 

[N_I_B]

@Col Mustard wow thank you for that in depth reply! It is quite possible there's something wrong with the wiring - I did it myself but that was probably about 10 years ago when my soldering left a bit to be desired. I may re-do it with all new components and see how I get on. I'm thinking Bare Knuckle 550k pots, I believe they have a narrower tolerance and closer to true values. Not sure PIO caps are worth it, I barely use the tone controls so not sure I'd see any benefit spending loads on those.

Is there any easy way to check if I've got the pickup wires backwards maybe with a multimeter? IIRC it's not actually that clear which is which - they're both 2 conductor but not with braided wire which makes it very simple! It doesn't have that hollow out of phase sound though.

When I say it sounds dead and plinky I don't mean that hollow and thin out of phase sound, it still sounds like a humbucker Gibson, just a bit weak and choked/poor sustain and there's not much in the way of dynamics when you dig in etc like I find with other guitars and single notes/leads etc don't always ring out.

It does need a setup/fret level so I may just get the tech to check the whole thing over whilst he's doing it.

What are your methods for adjusting pickup height? I have always run the bridge pickup quite close to the strings otherwise it can sound weak and be overpowered by the neck pickup. I've been playing guitar for about 22 years and never struggled so much with a guitar to get what I want out of it!

 

[Daphne Gruntfuttock]

No braid ?
Mmm, wonder if you've fitted them wrong , the hot wire from the PU should go to the right tag of the pot [ looking down] and the earth lead to the body of the pot .
Check the output of the PUs with a multimeter , plug in your usual lead to the guitar, put vol pots to max, set meter to Resistance = 20K, measure the resistance on the jack plug, each PU should be 7.5 - 8.0 , with the toggle in the middle/mixed position the reading should be 3.9. If not you have a wiring prob.
Also are the PU polepieces too far away from the strings ?

 

[Bad Penguin]

It does need a setup/fret level so I may just get the tech to check the whole thing over whilst he's doing it.

I think the entire issue is solved right here.
So, raise the action a bit. Play it. Does it still sound "plinky and choked"? To me, it sounds as if your truss rod might be out a touch, and you need a little fret work.

 

[Col Mustard]

And when in doubt, lower the pickups... (not raise the action)
use a screw driver... Gibson gave us these things so we could
adjust it all to what we want. Pickups too close to the strings are a no-no.
Those magnets can have a strong effect on the steel strings.
But not a good effect.

I think you're on the right track.
Look up a truly antique video: Eric Clapton discussing
"Woman Tone"... this from the age before many pedals existed.
All a guitarist had were the tone controls on his guitar
and his amp.

If as you say you "barely use your tone controls"
that might be part of your problem right there.
I do know that there is a faction among guitarists who
don't believe in using "tone controls..." but that faction
is doomed to spending too much money and effort
chasing tone that can be controlled using
potentiometers. (a 19th century invention, but still useful)

Good luck, you are likely on the correct path now.
Rock on...

 

[Snake Plissken]

Col Mustard's answer to every thread is that everything Gibson makes and everything they spec their guitars with is superior to everything on the planet, and if you want to change or swap something out (especially swapping Gibson pickups for something else because those are the holy grail, is blasphemy) there must be a screw loose in your brain, and you're the problem, not the guitar, and he will do this with a epic-length response in EVERY thread and goes into the weeds with some border-line conspiracy theory "what if's".

While I am usually a proponent of leaving things stock for the most part, I think he goes a little overboard and is a little neurotic about his stances and beliefs.

My simple take after reading the OP's thread is the guitar simply needs a set up. Get the relief and action dialed in correctly and start there. Also be honest with yourself and realize you need to match the action to your style of playing. A heavy hand and low action with little to no relief aren't going to work together. My bet is this is probably the main culprit, and from there see if it needs a fret level. Best to start with the most obvious and simple solutions first and then move on to the more random and unlikely possibilities.

 

[Col Mustard]

sorry about that...

I've been a member of this forum long enough
that I'm used to using a real computer and a real keyboard
to write real responses to complicated issues.
Gibson bashers can pound sand.

Unfortunately for me, the world has changed and guys are
attempting to function on an Internet forum using a hand
held device. I don't get that. It doesn't work too well,
does it... cain't read anything longer than a tweet. can ya...

But it's the truth. So it goes.
Just block me if you can't deal with it.
It seems like a lot of members have done this.
*shrugs
Life goes on... and maybe I wander off.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Col Mustard's answer to every thread is that everything Gibson makes and everything they spec their guitars with is superior to everything on the planet,

Not really.

Col Mustard has a long history here on the forum, and if you or anyone does not know this, he customized his Luna, The Walnut Faded SG with Aftermarket pickups and components. SO, NO he does not ONLY tout Gibson, or Gibson pups. He merely said there is no reason a properly equipped and properly set up adjusted and wired correct Gibson should not sound as any guitar should sound when everything is right.

 

[Col Mustard]

Not really.

Col Mustard has a long history here on the forum, and if you or anyone does not know this, he customized his Luna, The Walnut Faded SG with Aftermarket pickups and components. SO, NO he does not ONLY tout Gibson, or Gibson pups. He merely said there is no reason a properly equipped and properly set up adjusted and wired correct Gibson should not sound as any guitar should sound when everything is right.

thanks chili... the world has definitely changed.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Col Mustard will also say the same about his former Jazz bass, or his current Squier Jazz bass, or his Acoustic guitar or Tribute SG with Mini Hums. Properly set up and with all the components they came with, the basses will sound just as Fender intended them to. His other models likewise. But, if a player wanted to tinker around and fine tune the sound, they can change pots, bridges, switches, capacitors, pickups, etc and if all wired correctly, the instrument will sound good enough to play songs and not have flaws in the outcome.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

thanks chili... the world has definitely changed.

I typed my response before you even posted your reply about the computer and hand held devices and blocking you etc.

Not sure if your post was in response to someone being hostile or abrasive, but there is no call for any of that if so.

My take is for the Original Poster, N_I_B. that he be patient and stick around here, He is in the company of quite a number of SG and guitar experts here. We can surely help a patient and polite person who is willing to listen and use common sense to pinpoint the cause vs just being a parts replacer.

jtcnj is one such person with "expert(ise)"

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Electronics issue or pickup height - no way it should sound like you describe.

Pull the leads off one of the pickups and wire it directly to the output jack.

I haven't read this whole thread nor all the replies, BUT I am inclined to tell NIB that he should first take lots of pictures of his guitar and post them here.

Pics from all angles showing neck relief to the strings. The NUT, the bridge, Pickups, Heights, and even take the control cover off and show us the wiring, pots, switch, etc.

SO many variables could be causing his troubles. Pics will tell us a lot.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

N_I_B I am not telling you you need to buy these wiring kits or anything, but do yourself a favor and see how your setup is wired in comparison to these.

SG Wiring Diagram

Wiring diagram for our Gibson SG wiring kit - This based on the popular "50s" style wiring and uses braided wire from the toggle switch to ground all four pots together before continuing to the output jack. The setup is essentially the same as Les Paul wiring ie. two humbuckers, two volume and...

sixstringsupplies.co.uk

How To Wire a Gibson SG

Welcome to our guide on how to wire an SG using our SG wiring kit. There is a video complementing this guide and we recommend you familiarise yourself with a wiring diagram before starting. This guide demonstrates how to wire an SG in the popular “50s” style and is identical to how a Les Paul is...

sixstringsupplies.co.uk

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

 

[laza616]

Col Mustard's answer to every thread is that everything Gibson makes and everything they spec their guitars with is superior to everything on the planet, and if you want to change or swap something out (especially swapping Gibson pickups for something else because those are the holy grail, is blasphemy) there must be a screw loose in your brain, and you're the problem, not the guitar, and he will do this with a epic-length response in EVERY thread and goes into the weeds with some border-line conspiracy theory "what if's".

Are you alright?
People were wrong many times before but never were they wrong like you now

 

[living room rocker]

A heavy hand and low action with little to no relief aren't going to work together.

Why would this be?